Question on ERIC SOL Brake kit

[RON]

I think I need some *education here*. From what I can see, the rotors are larger , but the CALIPERS remain the same ?

http://www.solaraguy.com/viewtopic.php?t=42082&highlight=ericsol+brake+kit

Braking power is proportional to THE SWEPT SURFACE AREA! It doesn't matter what size ROTOR you're using, if the caliper (pad area) remains the same. In fact you're REDUCING braking power by increasing the weight of the rotor (as well as increasing the unsprung weight!) and keeping the pad area the same.

I found this reply on the thread:

"Even if your contact area is the same, with drilled/slotted rotors you should have better braking. Maybe not a massive difference but there should be a difference."

The increase in weight will definitely offset any benfits of slotting. You may as well have slotted the original rotors! Besides, slotting is used to vent gases that accumulate under the pads in VERY AGGRESSIVE RACING (MANY LAPS)...not in normal day to day or even *street* encounters. You would be MUCH better off going to bigger CALIPERS AND ROTORS. This mod seems very misguided to me.
Just my take.

[jetbtkng]

well i think the caliper sits out closer to the edge of the rotor, thus the bigger rotor would spin less at the edge, making the brake work less hard to stop said mass.......................

[RON]

well i think the caliper sits out closer to the edge of the rotor, thus the bigger rotor would spin less at the edge, making the brake work less hard to stop said mass.......................

Good one!

[STYLSH]

The thing is, bigger rotors means that there is more metal. More metal means that it will be able to hold more heat before it becomes heat soaked. And bigger surface area to cool itself down. So the "soggy brakes" or brake fade won't be as easily achieved.

Slotting also prevents your pads from glazing as the pads get "scraped" every time it passes over the slots giving it a nice clean surface to clamp onto the rotors. This is also the reason why they kill pads a lot quicker.

[Midias]

Get the brackets and the es300 dual calipers to go with it.

[RON]

Get the brackets and the es300 dual calipers to go with it.

Are those LARGER as well? I read somewhere that using ES 400 caliper from an earlier model (92?) is the way to go...it uses a larger pad.

[RON]

The thing is, bigger rotors means that there is more metal. More metal means that it will be able to hold more heat before it becomes heat soaked. And bigger surface area to cool itself down. So the "soggy brakes" or brake fade won't be as easily achieved.

Slotting also prevents your pads from glazing as the pads get "scraped" every time it passes over the slots giving it a nice clean surface to clamp onto the rotors. This is also the reason why they kill pads a lot quicker.

The DOWNSIDE of this mod (INCREASED WEIGHT and INERTIA) far out weighs anything concerning *heat sinking* advantage. As far as slotting..as I said...if you want that feature (useless, unless you race big time), slot the STOCK ROTORS!

[trd4life]

I think the clearest example anyone ever brought up was the idea of the bike wheel. Spin it and try to stop it by grabbing in the center and try to stop it by grabbing the tire. The greater the distance from the center of the object the less force it takes to stop it, or since the force created by our master cylinder is the same, the easier it is to stop. Either way ive had this kit for a while and it works well.

Anyone who disagrees needs to so more research. This kit is proven.

[Eye8Pussies]

the increased weight was a bit of a concern for me as well personally, as the supra TT brake discs weigh 5lbs more than the stock rotors- quite a significant difference.

it isn't a mod that I personally really recommend for non-boosted camry/solara's or even automatic camry/solaras at 4psi. My solara at 4psi already isn't great off the line- with an extra 5lbs, it would be even worse.

But on a car such as my camry, the 5lbs pretty much makes no difference in performance while being able to fully use the advantage of the increased braking ability and heat dissipation capabilities.

It is a bit of a pro/con type of thing really. Also, the supra TT rotors fill up wheels a lot better, being a plus to me personally, but being a negative for people who don't want to have to run 17" rims or larger.

[RON]

I think the clearest example anyone ever brought up was the idea of the bike wheel. Spin it and try to stop it by grabbing in the center and try to stop it by grabbing the tire. The greater the distance from the center of the object the less force it takes to stop it, or since the force created by our master cylinder is the same, the easier it is to stop. Either way ive had this kit for a while and it works well.

Anyone who disagrees needs to so more research. This is kit is proven.

Could you provide me with the *research*? The stopping force is proportional to the SWEPT AREA. If this application was a good one, then why isn't this an *accepted* solution for manufactures and racers? Wouldn't it be MUCH MORE effective to have the caliper reach ALL the way in? You bet your A$$ it would, and that's why you NEVER see an application that uses a *non full reaching* caliper. WHY? Because you're grabbing MORE ROTOR SURFACE with the bigger caliper. Fact>>>> the rotational FORCE of the HEAVIER ROTOR is HARDER to stop than the smaller one is. The centrifugal force at the OUTER edge is GREATER than the inner portion. Also, don't forget the increase in UNSPRUNG WEIGHT ( heavier wheels are harder to accelerate and deccelerate). Until proven to me other wise, this application has ZERO merit.

Read this article:

http://phun.physics.virginia.edu/topics/centrifugal.html

Since the centrifugal force appears so real, it is often very useful to use as if it were real. The equation above shows that the force depends on v-squared over r. Because v increases with radius, the force will actually increase with radius as well. If you are standing on the merry-go-round, you will have a harder time staying on as you move further away from the center if the merry-go-round rotates at a constant speed.

An object traveling in a circle behaves as if it is experiencing an outward force. This force, known as the centrifugal force, depends on the mass of the object, the speed of rotation, and the distance from the center. The more massive the object, the greater the force; the greater the speed of the object, the greater the force; and the greater the distance from the center, the greater the force.

[trd4life]

AEM makes a O.E. Caliper big brake kit.
http://www.coximport.com/aem/bigbrakes.html

Powerslot makes an O.E. Caliper brake kit
http://www.modacar.com/products/Honda/P ... +Cali.html

Baer makes a O.E. Caliper big brake kit
http://www.southerncarparts.com/corvett ... -1987.html

The list goes on and on. Looks like all the these companies have no idea what they are talking about ! These kits must not work !

[RON]

http://www.nissansilvia.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t380330.html

The bigger rotor means you can apply a lower force for the same braking effect, assuming the same pad size and every thing else being equal, as you have a longer lever/greater swept area per rotation. If you are on the limit with the 280mm rotor (as in you are virtually standing on the brake) then it certainly means it will be easier to modulate your braking with a bigger rotor.
You won't improve your stopping distances significantly. That will mostly be determined by your tyre already, followed by your ability to threshold brake with the current setup. If your are comfortable with the brakes on the car and can consistently brake on the limit then you will get bugger all improvement from the upgrade.

Obviously the downside is a heavier rotor and greater unsprung weight.

OK...so we have LESS EFFORT due to leverage, but you're not going to increase the stopping power to any significant degree. In fact as he says here....if you are a good *threshold braker*, then this upgrade will do ZILTCH. I say the heavier weight is a BIG DEAL here. If you want better stopping power, go with a good racing pad instead of this solution. I stand by what I have said....if you REALLY want (actually *NEED* or *MUST*) to improve stopping power, use bigger calipers and rotors. This set up just isn't worth what you GIVE UP with added sprung weight.

[RON]

I'll concede one thing here though.....if you could get a LIGHTWEIGHT ROTOR (see link below) that's equal to or less than the stock rotor, then using a larger rotor alone would be a benefit.

>>"The next logical upgrade after a simple brake pad swap is installing a larger rotor. Since bigger rotors are heavier, they are able to store more energy before becoming heat soaked. This will always reduce brake fade. Furthermore, large rotors offer far more overall surface area and are able to shed heat faster. Monstrous rotors also provide a distinct mechanical advantage during braking. Clamping down on the edge of a 13-inch rotor is far more effective than doing so on a 9-inch rotor. To ensure proper fit, larger calipers are almost always necessary when dramatically increasing the diameter of rotors." However, as Hays is quick to point out, installing larger rotors does have its drawbacks. Unfortunately, iron is not light. In fact, each of the RX-7's 11.6-inch rotors weighs nearly 15 lbs. Now, let's say we wanted to mount a set of extra beefy, 12.7-inch rotors typically found on perhaps the best braking production car in the world, the Porsche 911 Turbo.

While the bigger rotors would be able to stop the car in a shorter distance and be more able to withstand the rigors of the race track, they also weigh a whopping 21 lbs each. An extra 6 lbs per rotor does not seem like a big deal at first glance. However, it is important to realize that rotors (and wheels, tires and hubs) are rotating mass, so not only do we have to deal with accelerating them in a straight line, we also have to accelerate their rotational speed. In the case of round objects such as rotors, rotational inertia increases with the square of the radius. In other words, mass furthest from the center of rotation (in this case, the wheel hub) has a far greater inertial effect than mass close to the center of rotation. For big, heavy rotors that evenly spread their mass from the hub to almost the inner edges of the wheel rim, 6 extra lbs, according to Hays, is approximately equivalent to a 24 lb of static mass. Multiply again by four (for each corner of the car), and you are looking at a 96 lb increase in effective weight. For a car that Mazda went to nearly ridiculous lengths to minimize weight; adding nearly 100 lbs would certainly be a pity. Furthermore, this extra mass is un-sprung, meaning that it moves up and down with irregularities of the road surface. As all automotive engineers know, increasing un-sprung weight greatly compromises the suspension's ability to do its job. So how do we improve braking performance without sacrificing handling, ride quality, and un-sprung weight?

Fortunately for us, Cooltech has a very unique solution. Instead of using iron rotors for its top-of-the-line braking systems, it uses a remarkable material known as Metal Matrix Composite, or MMC for short. According to Hays, MMC rotors (Cool Rotors) provide several advantages compared to traditional rotors.

Reduction of Rotating and Un-Sprung Weight
MMC rotors are roughly one-third the weight of traditional gray iron rotors. As a direct result, handling, ride quality and even acceleration performance is improved.<<

http://www.modified.com/projectcars/9904_mazda_rx_7_part_3/index.html

So, I did learn something here. Thanks for educating me....that was my initial request.

[sydemoid]

stretching.... yawning.... (had a long day at work...)

I'm going to chime in, and ask a few questions, so with no disrespect in mind, here we go:

RON: do you own the brake kit in question?, have you been in a vehicle that has the kit in question on?

I will give you points with the added weight being a negative, but, as with everything in life, one negative, cannot prove itself to be enough to overcome more than one positive.

Meaning, that regardless of the added weight, the physics of the kits all serve the same purpose, that is to allow the use of a stock caliper on a larger rotor, a larger rotor dissipates heat a lot faster than a smaller stock one. This heat in a smaller rotor, will eventually lead to rotor warping, which regardless of what pads you have, will then cause issues when braking under any stress.

With all due respect, I have used both systems, and ever since I have used the Ericsol caliper kit, I have yet to notice brake fatigue, brake fade, rotor warping, or any issues, the stopping distance has been decreased significantly, and because of these factors, I am allowed to enter corners faster, decrease my speed with minimal effort.

As for pads, I have used 4 types on my car, and for 3 years that I have owned the Ericsol kit, Carbon Metallic on cross-drilled, slotted rotors has held up beautifully. The addition of Goodrich lines makes the experience even better!

so the extra 10 pounds really has minimal effect to the performance of the car... that's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.

My guess would be that in order for all to be happy, 2 piece aluminum hat rotors would be the best option to reduce weight, at an added cost obviously.

[RON]

With all due respect, I have used both systems, and ever since I have used the Ericsol caliper kit, I have yet to notice brake fatigue, brake fade, rotor warping, or any issues, the stopping distance has been decreased significantly, and because of these factors, I am allowed to enter corners faster, decrease my speed with minimal effort.

You're in a much better position to judge than I. I take you at your word as far as your impressions and experience. I've done brake mods, including larger brakes (rotors and calipers)..but not on this car. Thanks for your input.