Hydrogen kits (HHO cells) REALLY WORK!! Over 50mpg in CITY!

[Down2TheC]

Moving to Gen2 Custom so the public at large can see it.

[redgreen21]

This seems like a scam... I have a degree in physics and this seems to violate a law of thermdynamics, which basically states; "The change in the internal energy of a closed thermodynamic system is equal to the sum of the amount of heat energy supplied to the system and the work done on the system". You have to run your engine using fuel to run the alternator to charge the battery to separate water into hydrogen and oxygen (electrolysis). There is energy lost to mechanical and heat energy during this process to create electricity. As you use the electricity to separate the water you cannot get more energy than you initially put it, so you will not see a gain in energy as you have already spent more energy getting the hydrogen, oxygen mix than you put it. Unless I am missing some other input into the system that can compensate. Caveat emptor.

[[SMAN]]

This seems like a scam... I have a degree in physics and this seems to violate a law of thermdynamics, which basically states; "The change in the internal energy of a closed thermodynamic system is equal to the sum of the amount of heat energy supplied to the system and the work done on the system". You have to run your engine using fuel to run the alternator to charge the battery to separate water into hydrogen and oxygen (electrolysis). There is energy lost to mechanical and heat energy during this process to create electricity. As you use the electricity to separate the water you cannot get more energy than you initially put it, so you will not see a gain in energy as you have already spent more energy getting the hydrogen, oxygen mix than you put it. Unless I am missing some other input into the system that can compensate. Caveat emptor.

You would be correct IF the system was running 100% efficient. However, the engine system is not 100%, and what this would do in effect is raise that number closer, you will never have 100% because there will allways be some sort of loss...

[redgreen21]

You would be correct IF the system was running 100% efficient. However, the engine system is not 100%, and what this would do in effect is raise that number closer, you will never have 100% because there will allways be some sort of loss...

That is incorrect. The laws of thermodynamics work regardless of the overall system efficiency. In fact they are the reason there are never 100% efficient systems, and in doing so debunking the HHO scam. You can't get more energy no matter what and therefore you cannot get more energy from this hydrogen system, whether it is returned to you in efficiency or power.

[edited for clarity]

[[SMAN]]

You would be correct IF the system was running 100% efficient. However, the engine system is not 100%, and what this would do in effect is raise that number closer, you will never have 100% because there will allways be some sort of loss...

That is incorrect. The laws of thermodynamics work regardless of the overall system efficiency. In fact they are the reason there are never 100% efficient systems, and in doing so debunking the HHO scam. You can't get more energy no matter what. So no matter what you do you cannot get more energy from this hydrogen system. Whether it is returned in efficiency or power.

By that same logic, your also saying that you can't get more energy by hooking up a nitrus oxide tank to the system. But, obviosly, you can. By changing the chemical make up of the "air" indtroduced into the mixture in the combustion chamber, you can acheive a more powerful explosion. On top of this, if you noticed, the signals to the ecu are being "modified", so right there your changing the engine timing and controls aswell. I'm not saying that this system will provide the numbers it is claiming, all i'm stating is that it is midifying the setup so "change" (good or bad) is expected.

[redgreen21]

Moving to Gen2 Custom so the public at large can see it.

Hello Down2TheC;

I really think a warning should be put on this thread. HHO is a scam, plain and simple. You cannot get more energy out of a system than you put in. Don't you all think it is odd that if this were true that a big retailer like Walmart would want to sell millions of these?

[redgreen21]

By that same logic, your also saying that you can't get more energy by hooking up a nitrus oxide tank to the system. But, obviosly, you can. By changing the chemical make up of the "air" indtroduced into the mixture in the combustion chamber, you can acheive a more powerful explosion. On top of this, if you noticed, the signals to the ecu are being "modified", so right there your changing the engine timing and controls aswell. I'm not saying that this system will provide the numbers it is claiming, all i'm stating is that it is midifying the setup so "change" (good or bad) is expected.

But you are not getting the nitrous oxide from using electricity from the engine. You are adding extra fuel, not trying to create extra fuel by using another fuel (getting more energy from nothing). Please see the following for the math needed with "HHO"
http://www.aardvark.co.nz/hho_scam.shtml.
This guy has all the math laid out which shows how foolish it actually is. In fact, a lot of these system can actually damage your engine as your running your engine extra lean, which also give the false indication that your using less fuel.

[iinokturnolii]

sterling... Any update on this?

[redgen1]

By that same logic, your also saying that you can't get more energy by hooking up a nitrus oxide tank to the system. But, obviosly, you can. By changing the chemical make up of the "air" indtroduced into the mixture in the combustion chamber, you can acheive a more powerful explosion. On top of this, if you noticed, the signals to the ecu are being "modified", so right there your changing the engine timing and controls aswell. I'm not saying that this system will provide the numbers it is claiming, all i'm stating is that it is midifying the setup so "change" (good or bad) is expected.

But you are not getting the nitrous oxide from using electricity from the engine. You are adding extra fuel, not trying to create extra fuel by using another fuel (getting more energy from nothing). Please see the following for the math needed with "HHO"
http://www.aardvark.co.nz/hho_scam.shtml.
This guy has all the math laid out which shows how foolish it actually is. In fact, a lot of these system can actually damage your engine as your running your engine extra lean, which also give the false indication that your using less fuel.

so, ignoring the laws of thermodynamics for a moment, (not to lessen your intelligent argument, because it IS most certainly one of intelligence) but if he was claiming you were able to get more energy out of a motor (the system) wouldnt that be claiming that the motor would produce it in the form of more bhp or torque? when in reality, all he is claiming you can do is lean out the mixture and thus burn at a more effiecient rate at a higher temperature?
.. or did i missunderstand something and you're arguing that the fact he can make his car travel further with the same amount of fuel mixed with hho is in fact the excess energy that the laws of thermodynamics claim cannot be created

[redgreen21]

so, ignoring the laws of thermodynamics for a moment, (not to lessen your intelligent argument, because it IS most certainly one of intelligence) but if he was claiming you were able to get more energy out of a motor (the system) wouldnt that be claiming that the motor would produce it in the form of more bhp or torque? when in reality, all he is claiming you can do is lean out the mixture and thus burn at a more effiecient rate at a higher temperature?
.. or did i missunderstand something and you're arguing that the fact he can make his car travel further with the same amount of fuel mixed with hho is in fact the excess energy that the laws of thermodynamics claim cannot be created

No problem, I am arguing that he cannot make his car go further with the same amount of fuel mixed with the HHO. I will try to lay it out the whole process as simple as possible.
Burning fuel at a higher temperature is using more energy. Temperature is the measurement of average kinetic energy. Whether energy is used for more power or more efficiency it is still the same energy, and claiming that getting more of either is false.
The problem is as you use the gas to create mechanical energy, some is lost to the inefficient mechanical motions of the engine and heat. However some of that energy is transferred to the alternator/electrical system and wheels as useful energy.
Now you are using that energy again, through electrolysis. Energy is lost again through converting of water into hyrdogen and oxygen and heat. This is not a perfect system so H20 -> H2 and 0 is not exactly equal and energy is lost. That means the total energy contained in the H2 and O is less that the initial amount of energy used to separate it. Therefore even if you burn both the H2 and O in your engine, you have lost more energy than you can ever get back out the system.

I like to use the example of putting a windmill on your car as a parallel. The drag from the windmill will always be greater the the fuel and wind necessary to gain energy from it, which is why you never see windmills on cars.

[reiz]

Alright so it is inefficient because the engine is generating the electricity right? Well how is the HHO conversion thing adding extra load to the engine, cuz the alternator is spinning regardless. When you draw more power from the battery does this increas the resistance of the alternator against the belt? And by that logic would my gas mileage be reduced if I had high watt subs bumping all the time? What if I added an additional battery to the car that was strictly for the hho system and did not receive power from the alternator?

Oh and the Solara has an 18 gal tank so if you are getting 426 miles to the tank you are paying for 23.6mpg, not 50mpg

[PXLpainter]

Just to jump in here on this... if the amp draw load on an A/C compressor is about 12-15 amps and reduces gas mileage approx. 3mpg on a tank, and an HHO generator draws 15 amps and increases your mpg say by 10 (being very conservative here) - then it doesn't matter what kind of degree you may have or any other logic you can throw at this... it has proven results in fuel economy and I'm going to try to get some results myself (soon) so I can either dispel this as a myth/hype or embrace a newfound mileage maker.

[gnegroni]

Just to jump in here on this... if the amp draw load on an A/C compressor is about 12-15 amps and reduces gas mileage approx. 3mpg on a tank, and an HHO generator draws 15 amps and increases your mpg say by 10 (being very conservative here) - then it doesn't matter what kind of degree you may have or any other logic you can throw at this... it has proven results in fuel economy and I'm going to try to get some results myself (soon) so I can either dispel this as a myth/hype or embrace a newfound mileage maker.

I thought the reason A/C decreased fuel economy was due to parasitic draw on the engine (drive belt) not electrical power draw. I'm thinking that if the alternator has some spare capacity (which it usually has some), there is no additional energy consumption on the car or engine itself by using the HHO generator.

For some reason, I think there is no simple way to explain the HHO phenomenom yet, other than coming from a very complex equation of some sort.

I think of hybrid cars as an analogy. Hybrids are more efficient if using the electric motor (alone or parallel to gas engine). The energy is stored in batteries and put to use by the electric motor, losing some in the electrical-mechanical conversion process, heat, friction, etc., etc. I'm some way, stored energy in water is processed by the generator and some HHO gas (efficient or not) is converted into fuel providing additional economy.

Simply put, I think this is a simple way to have a "hydrogen tank" and run dual fuel on a vehicle.

[panic]

"Hybrids are more efficient if using the electric motor (alone or parallel to gas engine)"

2 reasons why hybrids are more efficient:
1. the gas engine can be designed to run in a very narrow range of RPM - it never has to pull at low speed, never idles, needs more high peak power (requiring big ports, long cam events etc.) since it has the electric as auxiliary power when needed
2. the gas engine is SHUT OFF a great deal of the time including all stopped time and most light throttle cruising (it's restarted under acceleration that requires more energy than the electric alone can produce, and also to recharge the battery when needed)

No magic here.

[panic]

We should separate the 2 uses for hydrogen:

1. as a power source, it's a scam - it cannot, ever, produce more energy burning in the engine than it takes to produce it by electrolysis of water. I have seen absolutely no scientific basis for the existence of "HHO gas", it's either hydrogen or it isn't.

2. as an additive to change the fuel's burning characteristics it may have some use (leaner, more spark advance without knock, more homogeneous mixture), but the increase will be minor - nothing like the reported 50.
The famous Harry Ricardo experimented adding hydrogen in small quantities to his existing (poor quality) fuel for airships, and it reduced knock. Since it could now run at leaner mix and more advanced spark conditions (that would destroy it on normal fuel), it developed more power and mileage. The research ended when a different engine was used in the project - in 1918.

"Nothing new under the sun"