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SolaraGuy.com • View topic - Which high flow fuel pump should I get?
Talk about aftermarket Toyota Solara Gen 1-1.5 upgrades.

Which high flow fuel pump should I get?

Which high flow fuel pump should I get?

Postby rapsux2001 » Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:12 pm

I found some 7MGE fuel injectors, those will work on a Camry right? So if buy those to support 5.5psi will I need a high flow fuel pump too? If so where can I get one?
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Postby JoeB » Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:01 am

I am doing some work with a guy to determine a good fuel system upgrade especially for supercharged engines. This would include injectors, fuel pump and fuel calibrator. We are close to determining a good solution for our application. When I get all the parts and installed and have results, I'll share with the group, nothing for me, I'll point you to him. This guy has done a lot of work with Toyota fuel upgrades on other applications.

*By the way, he told me there is no way we will need a 255 for this application. -JoeB
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Postby Guest » Thu Dec 04, 2003 4:46 pm

Thanks Joe, really appreciate it.
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Postby Yanks0114 » Thu Dec 04, 2003 8:48 pm

Get the injectors off the NA supra or IS300. 2JZ-GE. They are drop in
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Postby Guest » Thu Dec 04, 2003 8:58 pm

Yeah, I think they might have a different spray pattern, so I better stick with the 2jzge. I think I'll wait a while, until I can do everything at once. So for now, I'll just look around for the pump once I get more info, and maybe try finding some used injectors off a Supra or something. Thanks guys.
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Postby Mudd » Sat Dec 06, 2003 8:43 pm

What's the flow rate on the stock pump? It would be easy and probably cheap to get a Supra pump (over 255lph) and slap it in if necesary. And you better believe there's more flow to be had on the stocker if you rewire it with some nice 10AWG wire (just don't forget to fuse it at the battery).
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Postby JoeB » Sun Dec 07, 2003 7:07 am

I don't really "know" the issue with the fuel system but I do know one exists when you supercharge the 1MZ-FE. At least when you start running the boost up above the stock 4psi. The problem is, as someone here told me, we don't really "know" the flow rating of the stock pump. I'm dropping my car off today with a guy that has worked this issue out on a 3.4L supercharged Toyota. Once he has it all figured out, I'll share the info. It will be at least 1 week, I'll be out of town on business. TRD must be aware of the issue as well because they've come up with 7th injector kits for the 3.4L that has experienced similar problems. I will have information to share on this issue in 1 to 2 weeks. I really just want to help us all with a solution to this and have offered my car as a prototype. I certainly wouldn't go out and buy a 255lph pump though. Unless you modify the regulator system like UltraSlow, my understanding is it will over-run the regulator. -JoeB
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Postby Mudd » Sun Dec 07, 2003 7:08 pm

Well, doing some simple math, if the injectors are around 210cc each, I'm guessing the stock pump will be around 110-140lph or so. That leaves a ton of wiggle room to upgrade, and for cheap. I'm guessing a V8 Toyota pump will be a direct swap in (with minor modification, possibly). At that point, a fuel pressure regulator and some kind of fuel control is a REALLY good idea. I'm not sure if there's anything in the way of dataloggers available for these cars, but that's the one sure way to tell how your fuel system's doing, and the best tool for tuning for advance and getting rid of knock.

Anyway, I'll see what kind of digging I can do myself.
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Postby JoeB » Sat Dec 13, 2003 7:30 pm

I took UltraSlow's advice, followed one of the links he posted and hoocked up with Gadget http://www.gadgetonline.com/ . I spent some time reading through his web site and was thoroughly convinced he has a ton of knowledge about TRD Superchargers and Toyota's fuel systems. We started talking about the issues I was having with my supercharged 99 Solara 1MZ-FE as I increased the boost to 6psi and problems others have experienced like blown knock sensors. You can literally spend hours reading through his web site and learning but a must read is this page http://www.gadgetonline.com/fuelpump.htm .

When I explained the symptoms, they seemed so similar to the 3.4L 4-Runner that Gadget thought I just forgot to mention the low RPM ping issue he mentions on his web page. OK, a little specuation on my part, I think TRD realized there was a problem with the low RPM ping in the 3.4L (that was a precurser to ours) that they cut the boost until you get up to ~3600RPM. That kept it from having that problem but leaves us without boost through a significant part of the curve. One of the truely great things about going with a modified roots type supercharger is (IMO) not having the lag of the turbo and having boost all of time making the car much more drivable.

I've seen discussions here about whether the automatics get boost or not in 1rst gear. Between the fuel system upgrade and some modifications to the s/c hookup, I'm convinced that although I thought I was getting boost before (read on my boost gauge) if it was there, it was insignificant. When I got in my car and kicked it, all I could say was HOLY @$*&^@%!!!!! The butt dyno registered HUGE gains. The modifications to the hookup was for my fun and 1 of them he made me promise I would change back until I took it to Level10 and get the transmission valve bodies rebuilt. He told me I would shatter the tranny with all that power. The other part of the mods were the "RIGHT SIZED" fuel injectors, not just bigger ones, the Boost-A-Pump he mentions on his web page and the Split Second FTC-1 that EricSol has told us about. The combination along with expert tuning unleashed a beast under my hood!

If you are considering a fuel system upgrade, upgrading the fuel pump, injectors, want better total power under the dyno curve, you have to at least check out his web site and read before you do anything! Simply buying a bigger fuel pump and injectors will most likely leave you very dissapointed. You'll be amazed when you see how reasonable the prices are on his web site too. My car was used as a prototype and hopefully Gadget and Underdog Racing Development will soon offer this application for sale on their web page. -JoeB
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Postby cdssolara » Sun Dec 14, 2003 2:24 am

Joe, very interesting post. Thanks for sharing all that information. I read through the website that you linked, and found it extremely helpful. I was a little confused on a few things, probably because the various items he talked about were not listed in the chronological order of his testing. For one thing, he felt that the Apex S-AFC was a great mod as an FMU, but he also recommends the Split Second unit that Ericsol has been using. Is he advocating using both, or did he find out later that the SS is a superior fix? Eric has said that the benefit of the SS unit is that allows him to control ignition timing. The Gadget link didn't say anything about ignition timing. Did they mention anything about timing when you spoke with them? Also, am I correct in assuming that the exact corrections that he made in his truck would work in our cars? I can't wait to learn more about this.
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Postby JoeB » Sun Dec 14, 2003 8:30 am

cdssolara, I wish I could talk mechanic language. Gadget has a wealth of information and explained a lot to me. I sure hope I don't screw it up here :oops: . As I understand it, to really get the full performance increase, you need to be able to control the timing as well. I have a very nice limited edition S-AFC-II sitting on my steering column that no longer controls anything. I use it just as a monitor. The Split Second is a great controller but has no display. You need to hook it up to a laptop to get readings from it. As far as the corrections he made to his truck being exact for our cars as it was with his truck, I think it is VERY similar. He used my car as a prototype and I'm quite certain the SS programming will be different for our cars but he now has a good base program. My understanding is he will offer the solution as a package on his web site the same way he offers it for the 4-Runner, either by componenet or as a complete package. One thing I left out is he installed a wide-band O2 sensor. The sensor (tapped into my exhaust) feeds back to a digital display unit in my glove box and from there, it can drive a normal AutoMeter air/fuel gauge making the reading very stable and usable. Makes tuning MUCH easier. OK, another embarassing part, :oops: I think the WB-O2 sensor also talks to the injectors through some special plugs he put on the injectors but I really don't know anything about that. I just know my car feels COMPLETELY different, it screams now! -JoeB
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Postby SC V6 » Sun Dec 14, 2003 9:57 am

what were the mods that you did to the SC hookup?
later
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Postby cdssolara » Sun Dec 14, 2003 10:21 am

Joe, no worries, I get the general drift of what you are saying. I'm very interested in what's been done to your car because I was just about to have the 2JZGE injectors installed, along with a new knock sensor and the JP Performance exhaust system. Up till now, nobody had been completely sure whether an upgraded fuel pump had been a necessity, but it sounds like it is. It looks like this guy has really done his homework. It also validates some of the work Ericsol has been doing. Did he have any comments about your JPP system? I'd also be curious about his views on the lower compression heads that I, along with others on this forum, have recently had installed.. I'm really beginning to question whether that was money well spent.
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Postby SC V6 » Sun Dec 14, 2003 11:00 am

Let me know also! I have the Supra NA injectors, running 7 pounds of boost, and I have a S-afc II but im sure the fuel pump is lagging quite a bit... this would really be awsome if they could find a swap for the fuel pump!
Good work
later
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Postby Gadget » Sun Dec 14, 2003 12:47 pm

I am the guy that did the install and tune on Joe's beautiful Solara.

After years of trouble shooting the never ending issues that TRD left us on the supercharged 3.4 I feel that I have put together a great performance upgrade kit for these engines.

I have always put my info on my site, which is in need of updating by the way, so that others could benefit from my efforts and have as much fun as I was having with my trucks, both of them. The problem we were faced with was no good sources for the parts and components needed as a good value. I had worked with on clown in Washington, but he started ripping people off and double charging customer's credit cards and also over charging for his so called "kit". I broke ties with him and started working with another company to get them to market a all in one box kit for our needs. He insisted that he add a bunch of needless stuff like pressure regulators, fuel lines, and fuel rails and on and on. That drove the kit price way out of site and not one of those extra things would of done any good at all.

Out of frustration a friend and I decided to do it on our own so we can get our friends the parts they need at a good value without a bunch of needless stuff.

After much effort and endless flow testing of pumps and injectors we have finally settled on specific components that will do what is needed and are cheap enough so that everyone can take advantage of it. We worked very hard on our sourcing and we able to pull enough money together to make volume purchases to keep our costs down so we can pass those savings on to the end user. We feel that our kit price is very good especially compared to what else is out there.

You can go to our www.URDUSA.com site and look over our 5VZFE kit and see what we are using. It all works perfectly in the Camry/Solara except of the fuel pump.

Joe's car uses a newer type returnless fuel system and there just is not a pump upgrade available that will work. I spent countless hours over the last week with Denso, Walbro, and a few other aftermarket pump companies trying to find a good replacement pump. There is nothing. Now I understand that there is an earlier version that has the return type fuel system and our pump upgrade should fit just fine on those vehicles.

For years I ran a gadget called a Boost-A-Pump made by Kenne-Bell on both my supercharged 4Runners that worked great. The only downside to it was the cost. They retail for near $200. That is way I looked into an intake pump upgrade, because it is cheaper.

I installed the BAP on Joe's car and it was just the ticket. It is set at 30% and is providing sufficient flow and pressure to feel those larger injectors I put in.

The stock pump Denso tells me is the very same pump that is in the 4Runner just the discharge port is slightly different for the returnless tank mount. It is rated at 90 LPH which is no where near enough feed that supercharger and it the most likely reason TRD stopped at 4 PSI. That engine proper fueled and tuned will take more just fine. Joe tells me he has a 6 PSI pulley on it and you will be surprised how much better these supercharged engines run when properly fueled and tuned and not by some band aid pressure increasing FMU or a single additional injector.

Our approach of using the proper size main injectors has many benefits. First we can properly fuel the engine in all conditions from idle to WOT and full RPM. Second there is a cause and effect of the larger injectors that makes the engine run better.

To dial in the injectors we use the FTC to pull the MAF signal back to get the proper fuel ratios. The ECU interprets this as a decrease in engine load. This makes it want to run a more aggressive ignition timing. Timing makes power. Now here is the cool thing that Toyota does that we benefit from. Our engines are mechanically noisy compared to other engines out there with the solid lifters and everything else. Because of this the ECU has a hard time of figuring out what is knock and what is not below 3000 RPM so it dose not use the knock sensors to adjust timing below 3000 RPM. It uses an extrapolation of the high RPM timing to set up the low RPM timing.

Now with the stock supercharger on the stock fuel system it will lean out on the top end. This causes knock and the ECU pulls out a lot of timing on the top end. This intern causes a reduction in low RPM timing whether is it needed or not. Now when we properly fuel the top end, the timing is run more advanced from knock reduction, and with the addition of the timing from the interpretation of reduced load on the engine, again the timing ends up more advanced in NON boost conditions. Most everyone reports a peppier engine in non-boost and many repport more MPG in cruise.

The down side to this is a more pronounced High Gear/Low RPM-Ping problem. I know on the 3.4 when people increase fuel delivery on the top they get more pining in low boost below 3000 RPM when the knock sensors are not used. This is where our timing controller comes in. We pull out just enough timing in that low boost low RPM range to suppress the HG/LR-Ping so you never get the HG/LR-Ping problem.

This has been the main complaint with the supercharged 3.4 and it is most likely why TRD stunted your engines with no boost below 3400 RPM. That just ruins all the benefits from a positive displacement supercharger and makes the car drive like, well, crap.

There is simple way to restore the boost below 3400 RPM like is should be and really make your car feel wonderful when you drive it. It is all about enjoyment. The only downside to this is additional stress on the auto transmission.

I was one of the first to break the tranny in the 3.4 and I know how expensive it can be to fix. I do intend to market a performance upgrade kit for your vehicles at a great price, but you all are really going to need to beef up your tranny or our kit will kill it for sure. Be sure to contact my good friend Pat at www.levelten.com about getting your valve bodies upgraded and be sure to tell him I sent you. You might what to get a group thing going. I got him to do that with the 4Runner/Tacoma guys and he did knock off a bit on the price.

By the time you get your valve bodies done, our kit will be ready for you all. Right now I just need to nail down a final cost on the BAP and we will be ready for the 1999 Supercharged Solara. You all might have to help me with info on the other years Camry and Solaras. I will be honest I do not know the Toyota car line very well. I am a truck guy, but I am sure I can help you have as much fun with your cars as I have been having with my trucks.

Let me know if you have any questions.

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