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Injector Recomendations

Injector Recomendations

Postby CamryOnBronze » Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:18 pm

I know there is some to debate as to whether or not injectors are necessary or not with more boost in a TRD supercharged setup, so Im not sure if I will need them or not to run 5.5 psi. Im just curious to know what your opinions are and what you are currently running... Any recommendations, thoughts, advice, or opinions are welcome...

If I do go with injectors, i am considering 7mge injectors or some from URD if they would sell me them separately (I doubt they would though.) Would 315 cc 7mge supra injectors be sufficient for 5.5 or 6 psi? Just curious what you boosted guys think...

discuss.

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Postby Eye8Pussies » Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:03 pm

the direct fit ones are supposed to the non-tubo 2jz injectors


as for personal experience....6psi of boost and running an AFR of 10 on stock injectors with 255HP pump and Aeromotive FPR with the fuel pressure turned up and hooked to raise with boost pressure.

I think that the gen4/solara fuel thing is more about the lack of a return-style fuel system which means the inability to install an fpr with raising boost pressure to fuel pressure
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Postby Dawgz » Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:26 pm

Just like Jim told me, the car doesnt really need new injectors...Im doing pretty much well with the stock injectors and walbro 190lph fuel pump.


Im auto, ur manual, my afr on the dyno chart was iite, i dono what urs is at, since ur untuned...u said ur runnin a tad bit rich up top....thats alot of room to play with, hence the no new injectors thing....

but couldnt hurt i guess.
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Postby JavaJoe_2 » Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:44 am

Gadget wrote:I am the guy that did the install and tune on Joe's beautiful Solara.

After years of trouble shooting the never ending issues that TRD left us on the supercharged 3.4 I feel that I have put together a great performance upgrade kit for these engines.

I have always put my info on my site, which is in need of updating by the way, so that others could benefit from my efforts and have as much fun as I was having with my trucks, both of them. The problem we were faced with was no good sources for the parts and components needed as a good value. I had worked with on clown in Washington, but he started ripping people off and double charging customer's credit cards and also over charging for his so called "kit". I broke ties with him and started working with another company to get them to market a all in one box kit for our needs. He insisted that he add a bunch of needless stuff like pressure regulators, fuel lines, and fuel rails and on and on. That drove the kit price way out of site and not one of those extra things would of done any good at all.

Out of frustration a friend and I decided to do it on our own so we can get our friends the parts they need at a good value without a bunch of needless stuff.

After much effort and endless flow testing of pumps and injectors we have finally settled on specific components that will do what is needed and are cheap enough so that everyone can take advantage of it. We worked very hard on our sourcing and we able to pull enough money together to make volume purchases to keep our costs down so we can pass those savings on to the end user. We feel that our kit price is very good especially compared to what else is out there.

You can go to our www.URDUSA.com site and look over our 5VZFE kit and see what we are using. It all works perfectly in the Camry/Solara except of the fuel pump.

Joe's car uses a newer type returnless fuel system and there just is not a pump upgrade available that will work. I spent countless hours over the last week with Denso, Walbro, and a few other aftermarket pump companies trying to find a good replacement pump. There is nothing. Now I understand that there is an earlier version that has the return type fuel system and our pump upgrade should fit just fine on those vehicles.

For years I ran a gadget called a Boost-A-Pump made by Kenne-Bell on both my supercharged 4Runners that worked great. The only downside to it was the cost. They retail for near $200. That is way I looked into an intake pump upgrade, because it is cheaper.

I installed the BAP on Joe's car and it was just the ticket. It is set at 30% and is providing sufficient flow and pressure to feel those larger injectors I put in.

The stock pump Denso tells me is the very same pump that is in the 4Runner just the discharge port is slightly different for the returnless tank mount. It is rated at 90 LPH which is no where near enough feed that supercharger and it the most likely reason TRD stopped at 4 PSI. That engine proper fueled and tuned will take more just fine. Joe tells me he has a 6 PSI pulley on it and you will be surprised how much better these supercharged engines run when properly fueled and tuned and not by some band aid pressure increasing FMU or a single additional injector.

Our approach of using the proper size main injectors has many benefits. First we can properly fuel the engine in all conditions from idle to WOT and full RPM. Second there is a cause and effect of the larger injectors that makes the engine run better.

To dial in the injectors we use the FTC to pull the MAF signal back to get the proper fuel ratios. The ECU interprets this as a decrease in engine load. This makes it want to run a more aggressive ignition timing. Timing makes power. Now here is the cool thing that Toyota does that we benefit from. Our engines are mechanically noisy compared to other engines out there with the solid lifters and everything else. Because of this the ECU has a hard time of figuring out what is knock and what is not below 3000 RPM so it dose not use the knock sensors to adjust timing below 3000 RPM. It uses an extrapolation of the high RPM timing to set up the low RPM timing.

Now with the stock supercharger on the stock fuel system it will lean out on the top end. This causes knock and the ECU pulls out a lot of timing on the top end. This intern causes a reduction in low RPM timing whether is it needed or not. Now when we properly fuel the top end, the timing is run more advanced from knock reduction, and with the addition of the timing from the interpretation of reduced load on the engine, again the timing ends up more advanced in NON boost conditions. Most everyone reports a peppier engine in non-boost and many repport more MPG in cruise.

The down side to this is a more pronounced High Gear/Low RPM-Ping problem. I know on the 3.4 when people increase fuel delivery on the top they get more pining in low boost below 3000 RPM when the knock sensors are not used. This is where our timing controller comes in. We pull out just enough timing in that low boost low RPM range to suppress the HG/LR-Ping so you never get the HG/LR-Ping problem.

This has been the main complaint with the supercharged 3.4 and it is most likely why TRD stunted your engines with no boost below 3400 RPM. That just ruins all the benefits from a positive displacement supercharger and makes the car drive like, well, crap.

There is simple way to restore the boost below 3400 RPM like is should be and really make your car feel wonderful when you drive it. It is all about enjoyment. The only downside to this is additional stress on the auto transmission.

I was one of the first to break the tranny in the 3.4 and I know how expensive it can be to fix. I do intend to market a performance upgrade kit for your vehicles at a great price, but you all are really going to need to beef up your tranny or our kit will kill it for sure. Be sure to contact my good friend Pat at www.levelten.com about getting your valve bodies upgraded and be sure to tell him I sent you. You might what to get a group thing going. I got him to do that with the 4Runner/Tacoma guys and he did knock off a bit on the price.

By the time you get your valve bodies done, our kit will be ready for you all. Right now I just need to nail down a final cost on the BAP and we will be ready for the 1999 Supercharged Solara. You all might have to help me with info on the other years Camry and Solaras. I will be honest I do not know the Toyota car line very well. I am a truck guy, but I am sure I can help you have as much fun with your cars as I have been having with my trucks.

Let me know if you have any questions.

Gadget

www.GadgetOnline.com
www.URDUSA.com


Search around the OLD posts. There is a wealth of knowledge on this sight.
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Postby CamryOnBronze » Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:35 am

I understand that and thank you, I spend much more time searching the forum than I do posting. However, 98% of the time the threads with solutions to supercharging issues from 3 or more years ago require parts that are no longer in production or available, making them almost worthless. Thanks for the info though...

That being said, URD's fuel upgrade kit is still available in very limited quantities, but I do not plan to run the split second management system, do not need spark plugs, and already have a walbro pump, so buying the $900 kit just for injectors when I havent found a straight answer as to whether or not the car needs injectors to run 5.5 psi safely is not a wise decision. I know that Dawgz is running 5.5 psi safely without injectors, but I wondered what some of the other current setups are using. I guess I didnt really need to make this thread.

edit: sorry if that came off rude, it wasnt meant to be. I respect and appreciate your knowledge, Joe :)
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Postby Dawgz » Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:34 am

its all good daemon, we still luv ya. haha
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Postby Akfahad » Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:30 am

Damon,

An old PM I saved from JoeB, one of the few pioneers of our platform, he left before you got your solara.

"...There is some discrepancy about the injectors in this kit [URD]. They claim that the o-rings on the bottom of the injectors aren't needed, they don't provide them and you can't even FIND them. My mechanic and RC Engineering strongly disagree and say they are definitely needed. Those injectors are for a Mustang and URD modifies them to fit. All except the bottom o-ring part."

I personally do have the 318cc injectors. Why? At the time, it was aparent that that's what you needed to do to upgrade boost, however, I also don't mind having that extra protection knowing that my injectors arent' maxed out, if you will. Again, this is all going to be based on your opinion, but if you ultimately do decide to go that route, you can also try and contact RC Engineering and supply them your engine type. I know awhile ago they had 370cc injectors, definitely over kill, but they may have something else, and if not, probably could order it. Just a thought.
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Postby CamryOnBronze » Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:35 am

^thats not a bad idea at all, i completely agree with you on the safety issue... i would feel a lot better knowing that i have replaced the injectors with something more capable and know that they are not only brand new instead of 90k miles old, but they wont be maxed out either. I appreciate the feedback, I will look into RC engineering.

The injectors I originally had were 7mge supra injectors, but i sold them to milt... I was under the impression those are the ones to use, not the 2jz injectors, but Im not sure... Ill do some more research.

Thanks for the feedback.

EDIT: Sounds like from the boards it is the 2jz injectors that are direct drop in, my bad...
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Postby Astro » Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:46 am

I had the 2jz injectors, but in my case my dyno showed I was running very lean. Since I did my fuel return setup, I went ahead and got the RC 370's. I do notice it picks up alot better, I don't get the hesitation when I punch it. However, I don't know if it's just for the injectors or the bigger fuel lines.

I also used RC's Fuel Injector Worksheet located here at the bottom of the page.
http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx
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Postby DatSRBoi » Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:16 pm

Heres my insight. ( THESE ARE MY OPINIONS AND WHAT I HAVE LEARN FROM PEOPLE OVER THE YEARS. UNDERSTAND EVERY CAR AND SETUP IS DIFFERENT)

All cars are different, some will want the bigger injectors while others do not. I WILL say this though, Those running stock injectors past 5psi must know you are really pushing the living hell out of those injectors. They can handle it but over time they do wear out. It would suck to be pulling on a sexy vette then all the sudden one cylinder leans out because one stock injector cheaps out on you and you blow the rings, 02 sensors, or even bend your valves.

Having bigger injector benefits over that it gives you more room in the future at the same time put less stress on your parts.. You have seen motor lean before and you know how it does a mental breakdown on that motor. But for a solara in this case you do not want that considering you want it to last years to come. YES you can pull off stock injectors at 5 psi+ but NO its not happy. It will run but its not happy. Maybe your SAFC does not show the high knocking it may have or the A/F ratio doesnt show it but its there. Just FYI.

A return fuel line itself does not do any good unless you know what you are doing. IN MY OPINION if your are going to do a return setup step up to a 255 flow or even better duel walbro set up. In fact the part number on my walbro when I got it for the solara matches of the supras 255. From there I know that the MKIII fuel pump can be swap out with a MKIV fuel pump which is MORE efficient then the walbro and flows more too. Useing that on a return setup would be my choice.. I have seen people buy those crappy ebay fuel pressure regulartor ones and some have been lucky while others have blown their 3 grand builds +s. I can do a full explain on that but thats only if people need it be. PM me on that but a fuel return system on a solara would be nice, just make sure you do not cheap out on it with cheap fittings and fuel pressure regulators.

Finally I know walbro is the only aftermarket fuel pump we have on the solara that has been proven to work. I do not know where this other post is at and I will try to find it but if I was everyone, look into the MKIV fuel pump. I will look into it more when I get mine but the 255 walbro of the solara and the supra are same part number (just differnt bottom adaptor used which CAN be brought separately). The supra MKIV pump should be able to plug into the car. I know its allot more then 255lph. This topic somewhere did a flow test and FOUND.. YES FOUND that the walbro fuel pump tend to weaken in the high RPMs. A few guys have swapped over to duel walbros or even the MKIV pumps. With that said imagine an over worked stock injector and a walbro pump that has a weaken flow in high RPM? I will try to find the post..

I do know that when I bumped my car to 5.5 awhile back my stock injector held up. After a night of abuse I started to lean out. Went back to the dyno and saw my sencond knock sensor gaved out. Changed those and had no luck, Changed my injectors and it came back to life. My stock injectors on my car only lasted for awhile. Then again I was pushing 250-260whp with no mercy at 5.5 psi WITH a slipping clutch ( that means my car was actually in the 260-280whp mark on 5.5 psi ONLY).

Come to think of it, thats allot of power on injectors that was really design to work the best on stock boost. TRD's R&D makes me think why they only left it at 4psi and not more... Maybe its because past 4psi things do break..


FYI- Im typing this while doing 5 other things at one time, I might type something wrong so just let me know. IMO walbro on stock injectors or walbro on supra injectors are not the best thing in the world, its just all we have R&D so far. We need more test monkeys out there.
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Postby CamryOnBronze » Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:52 pm

^great input, I appreciate your time and advice dats. At this time I do not plan to run more than 5.5 psi- I see 6 psi being the absolute most I would ever run in the lifetime of my solara, but even that is pushing it. Ideally I would be able to install some sort of N/A supra injector, my 190 URD walbro pump, and tune to a safe and sufficient AFR from that point. I am not sure if this is feasible or not, but I hope to find some sort of reliable injector I can run to maintain driveability and tuneability.
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Postby CamryOnBronze » Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:07 am

do you guys know if the 380 cc NA Mk3 supra injectors would fit? I believe these are what i had in the first place. I dont know if theyre a direct bolt in though...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/mk3-supr ... dZViewItem

I believe these are the 2jzge N/A injectors:

http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/detai ... 12134.html
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Postby free » Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:10 pm

CamryOnBronze wrote:^great input, I appreciate your time and advice dats. At this time I do not plan to run more than 5.5 psi- I see 6 psi being the absolute most I would ever run in the lifetime of my solara, but even that is pushing it. Ideally I would be able to install some sort of N/A supra injector, my 190 URD walbro pump, and tune to a safe and sufficient AFR from that point. I am not sure if this is feasible or not, but I hope to find some sort of reliable injector I can run to maintain driveability and tuneability.


That is my set up with 6lbs. and URD FTC and MAF sensor calibrator. It works perfectly, and the boost actually increases after 5,500rpm maxing out at 8lbs of boost. The car was professionally tuned, but I have no exhaust mods which would lower boost on the top end beyond 6lbs.
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Postby CamryOnBronze » Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:24 am

A PM from cdssolara:

Yes, it's a direct drop in, and I think it would be a good move for you. One other thing; there are two types of these injectors, one for California emmission regulations, and one for all other cars. I'm pretty sure that they have separate part numbers; at least they did when I was looking into it. I was trying to match up some new injectors with a partial set I got from a wrecked car and couldn't figure out why they were different. I checked with a local dealer's parts department and found out about the two types.

Glad that you found some of my posts helpful. Although I still have my car, I haven't done anything to it for a long time, and don't get on this forum much anymore.

Good luck.

So it appears that the N/A 2JZGE injectors are direct drop in. Thought Id share what I learned with everyone else, thanks to cdssolara!
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Postby facevedo17 » Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:55 am

I found this page with Supra injectors N/A check it out
http://www.fiveomotorsport.com/Injector ... .asp#supra
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